Legal in all 50 States

53 comments

In all 50 States, it’s legal to kill a baby this old for any reason, no questions asked. And over 200,000 mothers, tragically, choose to do so in our country every year, including many whose babies are much older than this one. This baby is about 12 weeks gestation (about 10 weeks old).

And of course, in the United States we kill about a million more per year at younger stages than this. When does a human life deserve to live? And who are we to decide when to take that right away?

More importantly, when will we decide to stand up for the most defenseless and innocent among us?

Related reading:

53 comments Add comment

Kevin Shook February 14, 2012 at 2:58 pm

I’m confused by your comments: First you say ” . . . over 200,000 mothers, tragically, choose to do so in our country every year. . . ” then later on you state that “. . . in the United States we kill about a million more per year . . . ” It seems to me that it is nearly 200,000 mother make this tragic choice every month.

Matthew Warner February 14, 2012 at 4:57 pm

200,000 mothers per year in our country choose to abort babies of that age or older. About a million more choose to do so at an earlier an even earlier stage of life. That’s about 1.2 million abortions in our country per year. Sorry for any confusion.

Key to Life February 14, 2012 at 6:05 pm

What is so tragic is that those babies could make a difference in the lives of so many people. What if Steve Jobs had been aborted rather than given up for adoption? And that is true of so many wonderful people who were given up for adoption rather than aborted.

sage September 13, 2012 at 12:43 am

What if Hitler’s mother had chosen to have an abortion?

Lizzie June 9, 2013 at 9:02 pm

I hate people who say this. First of all, Hitler wasn’t the only person responsible for the Holocaust. However, he was one of the same reasons. These innocent lives have nothing to do with Hitler; we can not predict their futures, and do not have the right to take their lives away. Second, Hitler was born in a family, and was a planned child. His parents would never have thought of abortion, just like the many other women who were pregnant at that time. So there is no valid statement being made when you say, “What if Hitler’s mother had chosen to have an abortion?”. Third, the unborn can not stand up for themselves; they need our voices on their side. You don’t worry about abortion because you’ve already been born. I will pray for you, in hope of you realizing how wrong abortion really is. There is no morality here, only lies, pain and evil.
Dear God,
Please help this lost soul. They need your prayers above anything else. Please guide them to your path of salvation.
Amen.

Crystal February 15, 2012 at 1:39 pm

First I want to start off by saying I would NEVER have an abortion. I feel it would go against my morals and beliefs.

But who are you to dictate if a woman should have an abortion or not. It is not your right nor your place to make these women feel bad for their choice and preach at them and tell them they are going to “Hell”.

What if they were raped or molested, and seeing that their body was changing everyday because of that was to much to bare. To have to relive that moment every day because people like you made her feel like she was doing something wrong by having an abortion. Not only would she take the life of the baby but hers as well.

What if it is a crack head mother and she does not have the will power to put the drugs down and she knows if the baby is born. It will also be drug addicted and possibly not make it due to the withdraws and even if the baby does make it it would be put into the welfare system. Let me tell you something no one wants to foster more less adopt a drug baby.

Like I said in the beginning I would never. But I would NEVER also tell a woman that she should not do it. That is her right and choice

as the Bible says – Work out your beliefs and convictions with fear and trembling…
It does not say – Work out your beliefs and convictions with fear and trembling and then push them on others

Matthew Warner February 15, 2012 at 9:29 pm

Crystal – I understand your perspective. But I never said anyone was going to hell. Also, I’m not pushing my beliefs on anyone. Just pointing out facts. it is a fact that a new human life is created at conception. And not even its own mother has the right to kill that life.

Further, we aren’t doing mothers any favors by allowing them to get abortions. That is a path to regret and more pain – not a path to freedom. It’s a myth to think that killing a baby (her own baby) is going to ultimately fix ANY problems she may be suffering from. The answer is to love her AND her baby. Not to help her kill her baby or to stand back and pretend we have no obligation to protect and love the innocent life inside of her. Or to hide behind typical excuses like “who am I to help this poor woman in need of support and help? Let her work it out on her own and make her own choice.” That’s a shameful excuse. She needs help and love and support — not an easy way to kill her baby.

Mollie Myers February 16, 2012 at 9:29 am

Matt,

I appreciate your comments, and the respect in which you shared them with Crystal. I volunteered at a Crisis Pregnancy Center for 5 years. After we initiated a sonogram program, the choice for abortion disappeared. The response was often, “I had no idea…” once the mother saw the baby’s heart beating at just 8 weeks.

When speaking with the women who were facing situations, some similar to what Crystal described, I would try and help them understand that any decision regarding the child they were carrying would have consequences. Abortion, raising, placing for adoption, or even miscarriage all carry realities with them. The end of the pregnancy does not mean that child never existed.

The thought just occurred to me that Crystal mentioned seeing her body change would be a constant reminder of what had happened to her if there was molestation or rape. We would think it incomprehensible to take the life of someone that hurt us because seeing them reminded us of the pain. The baby that results from an unplanned pregnancy and is aborted pays the ultimate price for someone else’s actions.

I tried to find Crystal’s reference to working out beliefs and convictions, but couldn’t find it. The verse I am familiar with and that she may be referencing is Phil 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Crystal February 18, 2012 at 10:30 am

Molly- yes that was the verse I was referring to. Thank you

Crystal February 18, 2012 at 10:30 am

Matt- Thank you for the respect you showed towards my response. I do believe she needs love and support in whatever choice she makes. But still her choice to make.

Matthew Warner February 19, 2012 at 1:28 am

Crystal – what about the “choice” of the human inside of her? Science has clearly shown that a new, individual, unique and self-directing human life is created at conception. Just because that human happens to be inside of another person does not mean it is okay to kill them.

And again, helping a mother kill her own baby is not really helping her. And it’s not supporting her. It’s hurting her. And it’s killing her baby. There is nothing loving about helping a mother kill her innocent child. No matter how you justify it or try to say that it is “her choice.” It’s not her choice. It’s not a “choice” at all – it’s a baby. And just because she may be scared enough in the moment to think she “wants” it, it doesn’t make it okay to kill a baby. And it doesn’t make it good for her. And it doesn’t mean our hands are clean if we stand idly by and pretend it’s okay because it’s “her choice.”

I’m sorry, but it’s not her choice. Nobody gets the right to choose to kill an innocent human life.

Crystal February 23, 2012 at 3:54 pm

Matt – I am not saying I am going to help her have an abortion. I am saying I will love her whatever choice she makes. It is not my place to tell her not to, just like it is not my place to hold it over her head the rest of her life.

Matthew Warner June 7, 2012 at 8:45 am

Hold it over her head? Who is saying we should do that? I’m confused.

And of course we are to love her no matter what choice she makes. Nobody is suggesting we stop loving her. But if we truly love her, we will help her make a choice that is good for her. Killing your own baby is not good for you. And, yes, it is your place to help somebody make decisions that are good for them…if you love them that is.

michelle March 28, 2012 at 10:54 pm

One person’s rights extend until they infringe upon the rights of another. You need to recognize that there is an “other” in a pregnancy. If our wombs were transparent this would be a non-issue, but because the “other” is unseen and to a great degree “unknown” as an individual, and completely helpless and weaker than the mother she can assert her will and infringe upon the rights of her baby. My niece was born very premature. From the time of her first breath, even though it was assisted breathing, she had the protection of law. Another child of the same gestgational age which is not expelled from the womb prematurely, can be aborted. In no other circumstances do we assign people’s rights based upon their location or their being “wanted”. Two ethicists in Australia recently argued in favor of infanticide or what they called “post-birth abortion”. And here’s the thing, essentially their reasoning is right…if we allow abortion at any time during pregnancy, well then really what’s the difference between a 40 week in utero baby and a 41 week born baby? 7 days, not a whole lot. It’s abhorrent to think of infanticide, it’s wrong, wrong, wrong. But abortion isn’t fundamentally different, and any time in development after conception where you would attempt to “draw the line” is essentially arbitrary.

Fred February 17, 2012 at 11:33 am

“Let me tell you something no one wants to foster more less adopt a drug baby.”
“What if they were raped or molested”

Do you realise that the number of abortions for the 2 examples you made are minimal? You are making extreme example to justify an abhorrent practice. What about sex selection or eugenics against the diasabled, are they still the choice of the mother? Why can’t she have the same rights after birth then? If he develops a disease after birth that makes him a burden should she have the right to kill the baby? If not why?

Even in the above 2 cases the mother has no right to kill an innocent life. The baby is not the rapist. The other comments you made are equally flawed:

“as the Bible says – Work out your beliefs and convictions with fear and trembling…
It does not say – Work out your beliefs and convictions with fear and trembling and then push them on others”

So if I think rape is ok and you don’t is it wrong for you to push your belief on me? Or what about the age of consent? If you think it’s ok at 18 and I think it’s ok at 16 I can’t lobby to have the law changed because it would be pushing my belief on others? What about gay marriage? Shouldn’t they quit pushing to legalise it? You see the argument is flawed? If I kill a 2 month old baby in the womb of a mother in many states I can be arrested for murder. Why is this so if the baby is not another individual? They have laws to specially allow for abortion, otherwise it’s murder – strange isn’t it – defining the crime by the way it’s committed. if I kill it by kicking the mother in the belly it’s murder, if I cut the baby up with the consent of the mother it’s nothing at all.

Do you even realise that abortions don’t put the baby to sleep, they hurt it and it feels pain while it is shred to pieces/sucked up or even taken out alive and left to die on its own. We kill our pets in a more humane and painless way, and quite frankly it would be more merciful to take out and shoot the baby rather than cut it to pieces alive. Or do you think it’s ok to kill live humans or animals in the most painful way possible?

I’m sorry but I can’t buy the “I’d never do it but it’s her choice” spiel: it’s ridiculous.

Crystal February 18, 2012 at 10:29 am

Fred- I know the two examples I pointed out were the extreme, However did you know that 70% of women that are raped never report it. So you would never know if that one example was a minuscule or not. I do believe in those cases the mother should have the choice not to have a constant reminder of something horrible that happened to her. Also most abortions are preformed before 14 weeks gestation there are only 2 states that will allow abortions after 24 weeks that is California and Illinois, and did you know that you can not find out the sex of your baby until 20 weeks so for your example of women having abortions because it was not the right sex is laughable, because if it happens that is the one example that is minimal. To the disability, again I do not think it is right but her choice. She is the one carrying the fetus inside of her and she will be the one who has to care for the baby after. I think abortion is a better option that what some older societies chose. If the baby was deformed in any way they would leave the child outside the gates of the city to be eaten by the wolves.

“Do you even realize that abortions don’t put the baby to sleep, they hurt it and it feels pain” FALSE!
Science has proven that a fetus does not feel pain until 18 to 20 week gestation. And since most abortions are preformed at 14 weeks guess what no pain.

To the rest of your comments I have nothing nice to say back so I will let them be.

And I do NOT justify abortion! I believe it is killing a life. I just don’t believe I have the right to force my opinion on someone because it is my belief. Because what if again they were raped or molested and they cant live with the fact of that . but one case I failed to mention in my first post what if she is told if she does not abort the chances of her survival are slim.

To you last comment
“I’m sorry but I can’t buy the “I’d never do it but it’s her choice” spiel: it’s ridiculous.”
I had my first child when I was 14 years old. I had several people tell me including doctors I should end the pregnancy because my body was not mature enough to handle labor. and I told them all to suck my big toe! Today I have 3 wonderful boys. My oldest now 13 is a straight “A” student preforming in most subjects at a high school level some even college.

I have never been put in a situation where it was my life or the baby’s nor raped or molested that ended up with me being pregnant. So in truth I don’t know what my decision would be in those instances but I do believe it is my choice to make and no one should be able to make that decision for me. Give me advice to make a decision and love me yes but not guilt me into one.

michelle March 28, 2012 at 11:07 pm

Crystal – why is abortion wrong? because the child is innocent. The child/baby is just as innocent in the case of rape or incest.

So you don’t believe you have the right to assert your beliefs? OK, but if you believe that bank robbery or some other crime is wrong but someone else believes it’s OK, do they have the right to rob the bank? No. As a society we have defined moral behaviors. We have changed our legislative framework which defines moral behavior many, many times. Think about the civil rights movement and segregation and Jim Crow. A whole bunch of people thought that segregation and discrimination was OK. People protested and argued and changed the law and that was a good thing. When Roe was passed we didn’t even have ultrasound in use. We know so much more now. Again there is an “other”, who ought to have rights under the law.

I’m pretty sure you are wrong about only two states. Kansas has been the late term abortion capital of the country for years for example. Perhaps only two don’t have restrictions at all. Many have restrictions which say there must be some health issue for the mother, which physicians regularly flaunt by citing things like “emotional trauma”. That for example was why George Tiller was under investigation before his unfortunate shooting. He terminated third trimester pregnancies for things like going to the prom and missing rodeo season. I wish I were kidding.

sage September 13, 2012 at 1:07 am

You are a very intelligent woman who has obviously given this a lot of thought. I encourage you to stick to your convictions. You are right: you don’t have the right to force another woman to follow your beliefs. No government, no church, no organization, no person has that right. If any entity takes away a woman’s control over her own body, then there is no such thing as freedom for women. There is no life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness for any woman if we can’t control our own bodies and if we are not able to plan our families. You believe abortion is wrong. That is your belief. You don’t have to have an abortion ever for any reason. None of us have the right to force our beliefs on others. (And please don’t anyone start with the crazy stuff about if we allow abortion why not allow people to murder their children after they’re born!) Civilized people do not do that. You are right about science proving a fetus has no feeling until 18 to 20 weeks gestation. I do not believe the picture at the beginning of this is truthful about the age of the pictured baby.

michelle September 13, 2012 at 8:33 pm

Sage, no people to not have a right to force others to adhere to their religious beliefs. The anti-abortion issue can be completely defended upon science and fact. The government does define and pass laws regarding how citizens are to interact with each other and protect individual citizens rights against infringement. The gov’t for example has said that people under a certain age can’t drive, that you must be a certain age to purchase tobacco and alcohol. The gov’t disallows child abuse, you don’t have the right to beat your child inside the sanctity of your home – and the gov’t can intercede and prevent you from doing so. We (the gov’t is the people) disallow discrimination. So what you deny in your post is that a pregnancy involves TWO bodies. Not just the body of the woman. The picture above is roughly a correct gestgational age. At 12 weeks a fetus has toe and fingernails, ears, fine hair. The heart beats at 28 days. I can tell you that I had several placental abruptions during one of my pregnancies, where I had spontaneous bleeding, which healed but it scares you to death. So you fly to the OB and they do an ultrasound to check things out. At 18 weeks I had an occurance, and since I was there, and it was so close to the “big 20 week” ultrasound date, they just did that ultrasound while I was there. During the 20 wk ultrasound they take a whole bunch of measurments, the femur, check for the chambers of the heart, etc. It’s long, and they move the probe around and apply pressure to get the device where they can take the measurements. So there’s my son, sucking his thumb! The tech moved the ultrasound device to take a different measurement from the other side, and the whoosh of amniotic fluid dislodged his thumb from his mouth. My husband and I watched in awe, and he purposefully put his thumb back in his mouth and began sucking again. He was self-soothing in the womb. Now, how long had he been able to do that???? So I would check again your resources which state that a baby feels no pain at 18-20 weeks. How old were those studies…you know surgeons used to believe (decades ago) that newborns didn’t feel pain and they operated on them without anaestsia. In fact they were in so much pain they passed out. We don’t do that anymore, we know better now. Go get Abbey Johnson’s book. She was a manager of a Planned Parenthood clinic, she worked there for years, mostly administrative duties, never in the exam room. Then one day they are short staffed and the practitioner asked her to help with an actual abortion, all she had to do was hold the ultrasound tool so he could see what he was doing…she saw the fetus move away from the devices. She quit and is now an pro-life advocate.
I would like to see more women “control their bodies” BEFORE they have an unintended pregnancy. Not getting pregnant is not hard. It’s REALLY not. Use 2 forms of birth control reliably if you are going to have sex out of wedlock. 25% of all pregnancies are aborted today, so it’s not at all “rare”, and another 42% of the pregnancies taken to full term are out-of-wedlock; and we know for a fact that the #1 cause of childhood poverty is single motherhood. That’s pathetic. Utterly pathetic…obviously we stink at “planning our families”. Hopelessly irresponsible. Read the stats again.
Abortion extinguishes a human life, period, scientific fact. A fetus is not feline, or canine before birth, it’s always human.
What makes you so sure that you have a right to claim that life???
Do you know what partial birth abortion IS??? They deliver the head and neck/shoulders of the baby and then stick a very large needle into the brain stem and try to aspirate out that brain matter…then they shove it back in the birth canal until it expires. Then they deliver the dead baby. Civilized societies don’t do that either…but we do. Research saline abortions. Go look at some photos of aborted babies. Then see if you can mount your high horse again; without throwing up.
Women also don’t get a straight story about abortion, or oral contraceptives. O.C.’s have been classified as Class 1 carcinogens by the World Health Organization. Right up there with aesbestos. More than one abortion puts a woman at risk for incompetent cervix in future pregnancies, I know someone this happened too. I had a friend who had an abortion, had some uterine scarring that she didn’t really know existed then years later when she had a child, had placenta acretta (not sure I spelled it right), which basically is the placenta never dislodges correctly, it was fused onto the scar tissue. 3 D&C’s to try and correct, finally they had to do emergency hysterectomy so that she didn’t get sepsis. Another friend many years after her abortion, we’re talking and I could tell she was not all with me, I asked her what was up, she says “my baby would be 7 years old now”. Too many women think it’s an undo button. It can and does have lasting consequences for many women. Abortion increases your risk of breast cancer too.
I do think it’s rather hypocritical, that women want child support if they decide to carry to term, but won’t consider for a minute that the father might have some rights with regard to the life of his child.

Lorry February 19, 2012 at 12:50 pm

If one believes that they would never abort, based on morals, principals, ethics, religion, etc….then they know inherently that the action is wrong….it is murder. So, then, why accept it from another? There is right and there is wrong. Ask any child if it is okay to kill a baby in the mother’s womb, and they’ll be aghast that such things occur. With children there is no grey area for justification. We need to think like children to save children. Also, a baby created from rape is a victim of that rape. Our perception of the child needs to change to accommodate both victims. It is worth considering that the genes are from the mother too! and that the child is not a carbon copy of the rapist, and is not responsible for the horror of rape.
How is it kinder to kill a baby, cruelly, and without anesthesia, than to let that child live….even if the circumstances might be bad (at first). I was in a foster home. Many children from bad homes become successful adults.
Americans want to adopt, but they have to leave the country to get a child because the process is too expensive here, and even with that it costs a fortune. I have many friends who have adopted more than one child (from overseas). If the adoption process was simplified, made cheaper, and more accessible in the U.S. then I can assure you many more adoptions would occur. Instead, we have greedy brokers, State fees, and an industry that price people out of the process. It is time to free the system for more adoptions.

Crystal February 23, 2012 at 2:46 pm

Lorry – I can accept from another because it is none of my business what another person chooses to do, that does not effect me or my family of course.
And you are right it is not the child that raped the mother, and it is not the childs fault that she was raped.

But when you say that do you consider this scenario -

A woman was raped walking home from work one night, and she found out some weeks later that she was pregnant. She and her husband discussed all the options that they had, and they decided that it was Gods will that she was raped and he chose her to have this baby. In the coming months her husband decided he could not bare to see his wife carrying another mans child due to her being a victim of such a tragedy. It led to lots of fighting because she would not have the abortion. After the little girl was born. Her husband left her, because he could not bare to explain why his wife’s baby was black. The mother now resents the child, because her husband left and blames herself. If she would have just had the abortion her family still would be whole.
So now the child is raised in a home of regrets and resentment instead of a home of support and love. How is that fair to the child?

Crystal February 23, 2012 at 4:08 pm

You may say this does not happen, but I know for a fact that it does. Because it happened in my very own family

Jen February 24, 2012 at 4:54 pm

Who’s to say that even if she had aborted the child that her marriage would still be intact? Only God knows what could have been and she could have just as easily come to resent her husband for supporting an abortion and her marriage would have still been broken. We can never know what life would have been like if we would have chosen the other path.

And as to someone else’s abortion not affecting you or your family, aren’t we as Christians supposed to promote the Gospel to all? Aren’t we supposed to help others reach Heaven as well as ourselves? Jesus said in the Bible that if we deny him on Earth, he will deny us in Heaven. If the Apostles would have said “Well, these people’s spiritual welfare is no concern of ours, so why should we care?” there would be no church today. Please let us all remember that. We ARE our brothers’ keeper.

Crystal March 5, 2012 at 2:30 pm

Jen, you are right it could have went that way if she had the abortion, but she did not and I have an amazing cousin because of her choice. (and I lost a worthless uncle)
But because my cousin is half black she has had many struggles and has even tried to take her life.

And yes and as a Christian you are to teach others the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink. (What I mean by this is I can “preach” to you until I am blue in the face, but if it is falling upon deaf ears I did not help you or myself.)
Yes we are to be our brothers keeper, but that does not mean that you can put your foot down and keep them from doing what they want to do. It means to take an interest in your fellow man and to share his burdens in the way that Christ is supposed to take on the suffering and shoulder the burdens of all mankind.

So your best friend found out that she was pregnant and she had an abortion… Would you never speak to her again?
If your answer is yes you would never speak to her again. . . you in fact are not your brothers keeper.

but if your answer is NO you would continue to speak to her you are your bothers keeper and you would love her and help her with the upcoming emotional roller-coaster ride she just boarded.

michelle March 28, 2012 at 11:17 pm

Crystal – I have a friend who got pregnant first semester in college, and had an abortion. We went to different colleges and so I didn’t find out until months later. Months later she wept in my arms bitterly. 7 years later we were walking in the mall, and I was talking but she was “far away” in her mind. I asked her what’s up? She said to me my baby would be 7 years old now. She had terrible emotional wounds, and did alot of self-destructive stuff after that abortion. [and by the way she was jewish and her rabbi said it was OK to do so she didn't have spiritual guilt imposed upon her] It took her 15 years to get her life back together. Women all too often view it as an “undo” button. It’s not. Every woman I know who has fallen into this route has terrible regret, some physical complications, broken relationships.

Tigermom February 16, 2012 at 4:36 pm

To Crystal: Many of these aborted BABIES! are not under any kind of prenatal duress. And if only the parent knew, by having a required ultrasound prior to abortion, or EDUCATION of who she is carrying, then the child might have a real life.

Crystal March 5, 2012 at 2:38 pm

Tigermom you are are 100% right if these women would just see that little heart beat one time it might save that babies life, however it might not.
If we allow the government to but a law to ban all abortions, we are not only going to lose the babies but the women carrying them as well. Because they will find some back ally coat hanger abortion clinic that will not follow proper medical procedures.

Crystal March 5, 2012 at 2:41 pm

“government to but a law ”
government to put a law
Sorry for the mistype

Samantha February 23, 2012 at 3:08 pm

This is sad. As an adoptive parent I can only see the benefit and inherent worth of all children, born of rape or molestation.. they can all find a home. I think people can handle 9 months of courage and support in order to know they’ve provided a blessing to a waiting family. I adopted older children out of foster care and I know there is an awful lot of support for women that never gets accessed or even related thru the media. Abortion should not be an option when there are so many people and organizations willing to help.. but you have to ask, too.
I would certainly not balk at adopting a disabled, drug-born baby. There is LOVE in this world.

Crystal March 5, 2012 at 2:51 pm

Samantha
Bless you you are one of the few people in this world that would be so kind to give of yourself to raise a child with special needs. I wish there were more of you because then maybe this would not even be a discussion that we would be having.
But as we all are aware of the fact that there are millions of unwanted children awaiting adoption as we speak UNICEF estimates that there are 210 million orphans in the world right now.
Not that it is right but I am sure most women who make this choice think if they have no one willing to be their parent or guardian, why would another baby have a better chance.

Joseph February 26, 2012 at 2:10 am

Crystal, I’m sorry if your feeling attacked by all of the opposition you’re getting here. I hope you can see that it’s just your view that people are taking issue with and not you.
I noticed that you said you would never have an abortion because it takes a human life, but that you would never force your opinion on someone else. My first question to you is: why then are you forcing THIS opinion on Matthew and Fred and, I suspect, every pro-lifer? ANSWER: You don’t actually think its wrong to force your opinion on others when you think it’s important. Relax, this is healthy.
So, now, you believe it’s wrong to unjustly take the life of a human being, and abortion does this, and you think you have no right to impose your belief here? Let’s consider what you might be tempted to say if we were talking about killing toddlers. Would you still find it wrong to speak up to protect that segment of society? My guess is no. So what’s the real reason you advocate for abortion rights? Only you can really figure that one out.
As for your story of rape and how that child destroyed the family, why is it too late to end the child’s life? I say kill the child, and all’s well that ends well. We both are appalled at this thought, but why? Because human beings are not throw away items, ever. Let’s just accept that the only thing that should have been different about that story was the husband’s response to the child.

Sunshine February 29, 2012 at 6:25 pm

Where can I buy such beautifully handcrafted marzipan babies? That thing is so obviously fake and delicious-looking! Why do such silly photos become viral these days?

Crystal March 5, 2012 at 3:54 pm

Joseph,
Attacked, no. . . I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and I am just happy that Matt has made a forum where I can share mine as well as everyone else.
As to your first question why then are you forcing THIS opinion on Matthew and Fred. . . I do not believe I am forcing my opinion on anyone. I am freely sharing my beliefs as they have shared theirs with me.
I do not think it is my place to force my opinion, but if you are willing to listen I am willing to share it with you. If you think differently after hearing my opinion then that is on you. I am not twisting your arm and saying you must think the same way I think or you are WRONG. If we all thought and believed the same thing what a boring live we would all live.

Yes you are right, I believe it is wrong to take the life of the child. I have stated that time and time again and will continue to say this as long as I remain in this conversation.
And yes I do believe it is not my place to tell someone they can’t do anything that is LEGAL and I believe it should stay legal. My reason behind this is. . . Laws against abortion does not mean all abortions just stop. It just makes having one less safe. The number of women who get abortions does not change when it goes from being legal to illegal. The only thing that changes is more women die in some back ally coat hanger clinic.

Now to the killing toddlers part of you question. . . This might sound very harsh but here it goes, A toddler has taken their first breath, taken their first step, and spoken their first word if not a sentence, they are a living breathing human that has already had life outside the mothers womb and has already started forming memories of life. Their since of well being and life mean more to me than a fetus that is still forming that could not live with out being in the womb.

And as for my Aunt and Cousin – yes my ex Uncle is a real piece of work and any other terrible words you wish to name they probably apply to him. However because she heard all of her life it was partly her fault he left. She on several occasions has tried to take her own life. No it is not ok to throw away a life. . . But what is better no life at all or a life where you are teased, bullied, put down, mentally abused and destroyed, ect. where you wished you had no life and wished your mom would have had the abortion?
( a note to future posters please leave your – you would not tell your kids comments out of this we are discussing abortions not parenting)

Joseph March 8, 2012 at 10:22 am

Crystal,
Hi again : ) I just wanted to clarify a little something here. When I use the language- “forcing our opinions on another”, all I mean to communicate is just as you say: “if you are willing to listen, I am willing to share.” I don’t know what other things you might have taken me to mean; God knows the word ‘force’ wasn’t the best choice, but I think we’re actually on the same page.
What I’d like to understand then, based on your sentiments, is how come you are unwilling to advise a woman to not abort?

Crystal March 8, 2012 at 2:10 pm

Joseph,
I think women should be advised of all their options, along with the pros and cons that are associated with each. Without someone trying to impose their morals on someone else. If I were able to share my opinion with them before they made their choice. I would let them know how I felt about the situation, and end the conversion with… but it is your choice to make and you are the one who has to live with the decision.

I just think we as a people have given up so many rights to the government, and we now just allow them to stick their nose where it does not belong any time they want. Abortion laws being just one example.

Would you allow the government to have control of the decision if you could have a heart transplant and when… Of course not, that is why Obama Care was so controversial. Because it wanted to put stipulations on medical procedures.

An abortion is a medical procedure and we should not allow the government to make laws that dictate our morals…. Because your morals are not the same as mine and vise-versa. We need to make those decisions ourselves

Matthew Warner March 8, 2012 at 2:20 pm

Crystal – the government legislates morals all the time, it has to. For instance, you do not have a right to intentionally end the life of a newborn baby. It’s against the law. I guess you would say that the government “imposes” these morals on us. Or, you can recognize what is really happening, and that is the government is acting in accordance with a moral law that they have nothing to do with determining – only a duty to abide by it. Just as we do.

An unborn baby is an individual, self-directing, unique human life just like the rest of us (science has proven this).

It’s not a choice. It’s a child. And we have a moral obligation to protect that life. And we certainly have a moral obligation NOT to legitimize the option of killing a baby by calling it just another “choice.”

Crystal March 10, 2012 at 1:47 am

Matt,
You are right all laws that are in place are based or were built on the morals of Christian beliefs, or if you like the 10 Commandments. But then can you recognize that there are double standers because of such. . .
i.e. Murder or Thou shall not kill… Unless for your country or in the name of God.
You’re right you can not take a life of a newborn, however you can leave the child on a door step of a hospital, police station, or fire house no questions asked.

If we have a moral obligation to protect life that also means we have a moral obligation to protect the woman that is carrying the child. Which means giving her the best possible medical care, if she has made her choice when she has been given all the options and she decides to terminate the pregnancy. By making abortions illegal. We are not stopping the abortion, we are only making her decision less safe for her.

also there is a bit of Old Testament I would like to share with you from Numbers
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying … If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner. 5:11-13

Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon … And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water … And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD … and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse. 5:15-18

And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen 5:19-22

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled; Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law. Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity 5:27-31

So if we all believe the bible says what it means and means what its says, then. . . . God has his own abortion procedure

Matthew Warner June 7, 2012 at 8:41 am

Crystal – that is not an abortion. Not at all.

And of course we must help the mother. But helping a mother kill her child is not good for her. Convincing her that it’s “okay” to kill your child is not good for her. So consequently, if we care about her, we will help her to nurture and support her child, not to kill her child.

And there are no double standards if you understand those principles and moral issues you mention more deeply. A just war/killing in self defense are not murder and have very different moral underpinnings.

Additionally, making abortions harder to get and/or illegal ABSOLUTELY would make for less abortions. That is the historical fact. Many, many less abortions. Would some women try to kill their babies anyway and do so in a more dangerous fashion? Probably so. But most women would simply love their child and not kill them, even though it may be more challenging in that moment. And we could all support and help her along the way.

And don’t forget that there is no such thing as a “safe abortion.” Every abortion ends the life of a human (the baby) and has a lot of risks to killing or hurting the mother too. And even more negative consequences for the mother later in life dealing with the regret of having killed their own baby in their own womb – what should be the safest place for a baby. What a terrible thing to have to life with and something we should all be working hard to prevent from happening.

michelle March 28, 2012 at 11:22 pm

He’s right the government and the law enforce morals all the time. Why is statuatory rape wrong? What makes 16 the magic age? Because the law says so. We debated and decided, and we enforce it frequently. Why is it wrong to steal? Why is murder wrong? Why is adultery grounds for divorce? All of these and many, many, many more are moral decisions with the force of law.

Joseph March 8, 2012 at 3:34 pm

Matthew,
I really appreciate your winsome manner and your careful reasoning. It’s completely true that actually every law is ultimately based on morality. Ironically, Roe v. Wade is a perfect case in point. That one was decided by the Privacy Clause found in the 14th amendment (If I remember correctly), and is most commonly defended by the phrase: “Women SHOULD have the right to choose”. Now tell me that abortion-on-demand is not the legislation of some misperceived moral obligation. I think many people who raise this argument are just repeating what they’ve heard and simply haven’t considered how something like a law could exist without objective moral standards which are logically prior (keeping in mind that many are faulty moral standards). Have you read Francis Beckwith?

Matthew Warner March 9, 2012 at 1:46 am

I haven’t, unfortunately, but I follow him when I can and I think his soulcraft/statecraft book is on my amazon “wishlist”. you?

sincerely March 21, 2012 at 1:33 am

I get tired of this arguement, the poor mother may suffer what about the family who will never be allowed to see a family member they wanted to know? And just because a test or person determined under 8 weeks it’s not able to feel how does this make those legitamate sources? I believe God’s word that life begins at conception, all other sources don’t know more than God knows. If we all said everyone is on your own, that is not compassion. I have yet to see valid justification, and know that I won’t because it always shows somewhere there is selfiish thinking even if it seems compassionate to kill, that’s not trust that God can or would heal. That is troublesome to me for those who do claim faith in God.

Don Owens March 26, 2012 at 11:43 am

Matt,

Thanks for the post. So easy to get lost in the what if? arguments and miss that we are talking about the life of a person who cannot defend their position. May we love all, even the unborn, as God loves us.

KO June 4, 2012 at 11:45 pm

There was a particular topic that piqued my curiosity: the issue of an abortion because of rape/other such acts. I did a simple Google search about the viewpoint of the raped individuals on abortion because, after all, aren’t they the ones that know this topic the best?

I encourage all who have read through these comments/forum to read this article. It’ll only take a minute.
http://afterabortion.org/2011/women-who-became-pregnant-through-sexual-assault-say-ask-us/

I’d just like to highlight the very last sentence of the article: “None of the women who gave birth to a child conceived in sexual assault expressed regret or wished they had aborted instead.”

Wow.

Another word/phrase/hot topic that my mind caught hold of was ‘choice.’ I believe we all have a choice. Now, before you pass any judgments or claim me on the side of the Pro-Choice movement, let me clarify. Everyone has a choice to do whatever their little heart desires. You can choose to rob a bank (to use one of the examples used earlier). You can choose to murder someone. You can make these choices the same way that you choose whether or not to eat breakfast in the morning or choosing what pair of shoes to wear that day. You can make whatever choices you want to, it’s the consequences with which you must live. Don’t eat breakfast? Be hungry. Wear flip flops instead of closed-toe shoes? Risk getting too cold or dropping something directly on your toes (and the receiving the resulting pain). One can choose to rob a bank, but they have to live with the consequences of jail. Someone can choose to murder their baby while that individual is still inside of them, but since murder is a crime, they shouldn’t ask for an exception or try to cop-out of receiving the consequences of that felony just because the child hasn’t taken it’s first breath or it’s first step.

It breaks my heart to see people kill the most vulnerable and dependent of all beings and say that it’s okay.
Physically abuse an adult? Pretty big punishment. People look down on you.
Physically abuse a child? Even bigger punishment. People shun you and call you heartless and all other sorts of nasty names.
Physically abuse a baby in the womb by KILLING it?? Sure, that’s fine.

kayla chantelle June 7, 2012 at 4:28 pm

hi, i just want to say, i find this conversation really hard to argue with and really hard to agree with.
The point everyone is trying to make, is yes, we can only have so much sympathy for the women and their stories for the fact that it IS a hard decision.
But the point is, no matter what you say to justify it, IT’S JUST NOT RIGHT.

No matter what the reasons. Obviously it’s not our job to push our beliefs onto anyone. But this website isn’t for people to come here and defend themselves. You are wasting your time. Its to enlighten you about someones perspective sitting on the other side of the situation. As wrong as it is, i believe god will forgive you. But its what you do with this rest of your life that determines if you’re worthy of understanding and pity.

I say this because the person who shared his views on abortion, is referring mostly to people that do it and justify and justify and do not acknowledge its wrong.

I was taught in my culture, its not our choice to play god. The child was ready to come for a reason. Some young girls get pregnant and miscarry, and its just a reality check from the creator. A miscarriage is a loss, and a 2nd chance to straighten out your life and realize what you have left to fix and prepare before a baby is brought into this world.

I’m 21, i miscarried at 15, had my 1st son at 19. now hes 21 months and im 10 weeks pregnant with my 2nd. i debated on abortion with all my pregnancies. but i thought back to being 15. it took me 2 years to get over my loss. i really didnt want a baby and i got my wish and suddenly i realized it was a gift to be able to carry life and i abused the privilege creator had given me. And i missed my chance at a new beginning. so that ultimately has helped me decide these past pregnancies, that motherhood is the way to go.

the part that angers me most aside from my own story, is that i see my friends. right from 13 years old, i met girls who were forced into abortions by their parents. girls who were forced to have their kids at 13 as well. and i have friends who are my age and have had from 4-9 abortions. and now that they are trying to have kids, they whine and cry about not being able to conceive. so imagine how many other young women have done that!!!!

Because of my own experience and how my parents/elders raised me, i accepted my friends the first time they made those choices. And its hard enough for me not to judge them knowing they made that choice. But anything after one abortion is just disgusting, ridiculous, inexcusable and SELFISH. My cousin got raped and still had the baby. She hated reliving the moment but she had the right support, no she wasnt brain washed. She just realized that she was meant to raise that baby alone and That child chose her to be its mother. I believe before the baby develops a heartbeat, it has a spirit. noone can tell me different.

I’m not calling other women cowards for making the choice that they did because a lot of abortion statistics include DNC’S and my best friend had to get one because her bf cheated on her and gave her chlamydia while she was 2.5 months and at 5 months she had to get her baby taken out/abortioned because it was dying. its head wasnt developing because of how the STD affected it. and its heartbeat was irrregular. Every story is different. Thats the truth.

But the COLD hard truth, there are tons of young women who are too lazy or poor, (need i list more scenarios), and for whatever reason, they don’t use birth control,
so guaranteed, if you Google statistics on how many abortions a women will get in her lifetime, dont be surprised why the numbers are so high. In those cases, there is no room for pity from people like us who are pro-life. We have our beliefs. As much as i care for my friends, i think their reasons are disgusting but i wont punish them and waste my breathe, because they have to live with themselves.

Thats my understand, my belief, and i will never get an abortion. I cant live with myself knowing i took a life. Whether it developed a heartbeat before i did it or not. I wasn’t raised to punish other people for their choices, but I’m not going to tell them its okay either. As long as you feel that it is something you can live with, and that you are TOTALLY okay with your choice, carry on. Abortions will never officially be abolished because it helps population control. Sad but True.

michelle January 18, 2013 at 10:50 pm

Oh my. Reading your post I wanted to cry. I commend you for carrying your children to term. But with some girls you know having 4-9 abortions as you say…has no young woman you know considered merely keeping her pants on??? Unplanned pregnancy is 100% avoidable. If you don’t want to become pregnant…don’t have sex. Any young man who would walk away from you because you won’t…guess what if he’s that shallow, self-centered, and willing to put you at risk for a pregnancy you are unprepared to handle…he’s going to walk away after. Your friend’s boyfriend gave her chlamydia while she was pregnant with his child? Proves my point, he obviously cheated on her.

Ladies…God clearly has said Thou Shalt Not Kill. That from your post you have taken to heart. Read further down the list. He has said Thou Shalt Not Commit Adulterly. Your Lord and Savior has not given us these commandments because he’s an ogre and wants to ruin your Saturday nights or wants to control you or wants to force his will upon you. He has given you these guidelines because he wishes your happiness, and he knows what is best for you in his wisdom.

And if you are a true friend, and if you see a friend making choices and living their life in a way which you know God does not approve of, it is not loving to confirm them in their errors. If you are a christian, you will sit with them and lovingly, patiently and with kindness explain to them why they are making mistakes and urge them to correct them. That is loving a friend. Even when it is hard. Even when it means they are initially perhaps angry with you.

St. Jerome said…”The first reaction to truth is often hatred.”

God loves us where we are, but he also loves us too much to leave us this way. And so he calls us, patiently, again and again, out of our sin.

stern June 24, 2012 at 3:55 pm

i think Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is right

abortion is the number one destroyer of peace today

if a mother can kill her own child

how can we say to people not to kill each other?

i am from the Philippines

abortion is not acceptable in our culture

but i heard on news there are still a lot of women doing it illegally

which is sad and disturbing

Kay July 6, 2012 at 3:37 pm

What of cases of incest and other horrific abominations to Chirstianity? A girl should be forced to carry a child after her father raped her because its the baby’s choice? Not only would the baby be an abomination, but painful to the mother everyday and most likely physically/ mentally handicapped. The child would grow up resenting itself if it knew of the situations. Possibly abused by the same father/grandfather. It is the womans choice because she is the one feeding for/ breathing for/ living for/ suffering for/ thinking and most importantly creating this. I will say this picture breaks my heart. If only there were a way to transfer this baby to another woman. But, I cannot view all woman who abort the same.

michelle January 18, 2013 at 11:01 pm

Kay, less than 1% of all abortions are a result of rape or incest. The act of rape or incest is an abomination in the sight of God. Not an innocent child who results therein. I have heard the testimony of several women who were sexually assaulted and carried their child to term, none today would make a different choice, they love their children. You are making alot of assumptions. Have you seen October Baby? Go see it. Have you seen the testimony of the young woman who confronted Gov. Rick Perry? She survived an abortion attempt. Have you read the testimony of the woman who was the “Roe” in Roe v. Wade? Who is now a pro-life advocate. Go search for silent no more, read the testimonies of post-abortive women. Search for Rachel’s Vineyard Retreats, and what some women have written there. Too many young women, who have never had a pregnancy or had a child, just believe with the pro-abortion crowd is selling. And then are horrified they ever could have thought such things after they are actually pregnant and can feel their child within.
There is another good website…choiceunmasked.ca (I think that’s the address, it’s a canadian site).

All to often, what being pro-choice really means is I want to live my sex life any way I choose, with no responsibility for my actions.

Dunn April 8, 2013 at 5:50 pm

Kay,
You said ”Not only would the baby be an abomination, but painful to the mother everyday and most likely physically/ mentally handicapped.”
You probably didn’t know but 80% of rape victims have no regrets about the child or have any emotional pain via being in contact with the child everyday because it reminds her of the rape.

Sage April 10, 2013 at 1:10 am

“All too often, what being pro-choice really means is I want to live my sex life any way I choose, with no responsibility for my actions.”
Another one who believes women should be punished for their sexuality.

TIM April 10, 2013 at 1:21 am

The matter of abortion is not a simple one. Certainly a willful abortion is generally problematic ethically because its aim is to end the life of the human organism growing within the mother. But there are always exceptions to this general rule. For example, a mother may rightfully and ethically abort a zygote or embrio, perhaps even a fetus, if it becomes apparent that its continued presence in her womb threatens her own life.

Bryan July 22, 2013 at 7:28 pm

Nice photoshop work. This is what a baby at 12 weeks really looks like http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/baby-phillip-01.jpg

Previous post:

Next post: