Everyone against abortion, raise your hand

48 comments

It is truly unreal (like I can’t fathom it) to me that so many Americans vote for politicians who think this is ok. This is not exaggeration or hyperbole to make a point. They literally believe that what you see in this video should continue to be allowed to happen in our country.

And not only do they support this being allowed, but our very own president during his first days in office – in the midst of a financial crisis – has found the time to sign executive orders and enact laws that will fund more of this – that will encourage more of this. He has made it easier for this to happen. And for this he is loved by many Americans. He is held up as a hero. He was voted as president of the most powerful country in the world.

What does that say about us? Could the world be more upside down?

48 comments Add comment

Daniele Rossi March 20, 2009 at 10:19 pm

What frustrates me is I’m branded as evil because I’m pro-life!

Haina March 20, 2009 at 11:01 pm

I think about the innocent babies everyday seriously, it breaks my heart that the majority of my fellow Catholics voted for someone knowing that he was a pro-abortion. I know few members at my church who hated Bush, they were willing to vote for Obama regardless. Thanks for sharing.

Suzie Marcy March 20, 2009 at 11:23 pm

This makes my heart hurt. As a woman (now 55) who had my first abortion on my 21st birthday (the day my daughter Sarah Rose died February 25, 1974)because I was forced to choose between the life of my child or my families pride, the 2nd was 3 years later when the father of my child (Michael died August 10, 1977)said that I could have “my” child and raise “it” on my own or I could marry him and help him raise his two living children. Where is the “choice” in that??? I want people to know that women are not given a true “choice” and they are lied to by the mainstream media and Planned Parenthood “truth tellers” and those involved in their life.
Thank God I have a forgiving Father! That there are groups like Rachel’s Vineyard, Silent No More and Father Frank Pavone and especially my priest Father Peter O’Brien!
Yes, I am Pro-Life, I’ve seen the other side, I’ve lived with my “choices” and I’m here to tell you it is definitely UN-CHOICE.

kaesmom March 21, 2009 at 12:34 am

I understand the frustration. How anyone, after seeing photos of what happens to these poor innocent lives, can support abortion at all, is mind boggling!

Jim Oberschmidt March 21, 2009 at 3:20 am

” ..forgive them Father in heaven, for they know not what they do….” This quote of our Lord, is one which applies here, may our prayers be heard and this horrible behaviour be ended for all time.

Anna March 21, 2009 at 8:08 am

I know that this is a catholic blog, so please don’t hate me while I’m here. I’m not religious. I barely believe in god.

But abortion, in any form (late term or not), goes beyond religion and god for me. It’s murder. Even pregnancies resulting from rape (and I’ve been raped, I know how horrible rape is). I’ve also had an early term abortion.

Women have a choice when it comes to their bodies sure…if they want piercings or a tattoos etc. When you’re pregnant, it’s not just about your body or you anymore. Abortion procedures aren’t altering YOUR body, they’re altering someone else’s body and KILLING it.

NC Sue March 21, 2009 at 8:48 am

Please check today’s post in my blog for information about Red Envelope Day, to take place on March 31, 2009; let’s make our voices heard on this issue!

Danny McCay March 21, 2009 at 8:57 am

@Anna,

I’m Catholic and I don’t hate you, quite the opposite. God does not hate you either, He loves you Anna, and he’s waiting for you. He wants you back. No matter what you have done he will forgive you. All you have to do is turn to Him, repent, and He will take you back. I sin all the time and He takes me back. He’ll do the same for you, I promise. When we sin we are like children that have become lost, He is happy when we return.

With love from your Catholic brother,

Danny McCay

Jill March 21, 2009 at 9:34 am

Anna,

May God bless you for your honesty and openess. You are a courageous woman to come forward with your story. Thank you for trusting us enough to share it with us. I am so glad that you are here and I hope you continue to follow the blog.

Jill
Arlington, TX

Michael Velosa March 21, 2009 at 1:32 pm

How sad it is that we live in a world that brutally murders innocent children and calls it “choice”. It really causes me to weep. Truly Jesus was right about “Suffer the little children…”
The problem is that Obama is a great speaker with great charisma. He oozes confidence and charm. And people were drawn into that. They didn’t stop to think about the consequences.

Norski March 21, 2009 at 9:48 pm

Yeah: I’m against abortion. I’m not too keen about euthanasia, either. I’m not as altruistic as some can be, though, on this issue: I’m one of those defective fetuses; and even now an ‘efficient’ state might decide that I’m better off dead.

Sure, that’s pushing probability to extremes. But, once it’s okay to kill babies: it’s hard to stop.

And, I read Suzie Marcy’s comment. If I may direct something @Suzie Marcy – I’m very glad to hear that you survived, physically and otherwise. I’ve often thought, as you did, “Thank God I have a forgiving Father!”

NC Sue March 22, 2009 at 3:50 pm

Norski, I’m not sure what you mean by “defective fetus”, but I find myself feeling very sad to think you’d apply such a label to yourself. Even if you have physical, mental, or emotional handicaps, you are still loved by God. He knew in advance every awkward or evil thing you would ever do, and loved you enough to create you anyway. Read and absorb Psalm 139:

O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mo

Jessica March 23, 2009 at 10:17 am

In response to part of Anna’s post – in most states, it is harder to get a tattoo if you are under 18 than it is to get an abortion! Some states require parental consent for a tattoo if you are under 18 (or 17) – something permanent, yes, but it is NOT an invasive medical procedure (like an abortion)!! i don’t understand why legislators fight harder to have tattoo parlors follow very strict health codes than abortion clinics. Very sad.

And Anna, I don’t hate you. I will pray for you and for your healing.

Tigrefan98 March 23, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Anna, I know plenty of good ethical non-Catholics, non-Christians, non-believers of any denomination who still see that this is wrong. I’m not pro-life because my church ‘tells me to be’, I’m pro-life because I know a human being when I see it.

One resource that may help you is Project Rachel or Rachel’s Vineyard, a Catholic-based retreat for healing after abortion. They may know of some secular/non-Catholic resources as well.

Andreas March 25, 2009 at 10:46 am

Coming to the US from Europe really helped me to understand conservatives and religious people a little better. And I can absolutely see the reason why abortion is such an upsetting topic, if you truly believe that a life and a soul is being terminated.

On the other hand, if you are more scientifically minded, you might point out that 25% of all pregnancies end in natural miscarriages. So my question would be: did God design it that way, in other words, is he okay with babies dying in the womb? And if not, why does he let this (in your eyes despicable) thing happen to absolutely innocent babies? How can you condemn people doing this, when God does it on a far greater level everyday? I usually get apologetics and special pleading as an explanation (“ineffable plan”, “we can not know God’s will”), but I have to admit I find that a very weak argument.

And while I can understand the stance that many believers take on abortion I find that their concern about life ends the moment you are born. If you have to live in abject poverty, with drug addicts as parents, with people who don’t want you or even set you up for adoption – that doesn’t seem so bad compare to flushing a blob of cells out of your body.

So in the end I would say: try to avoid abortions by lending any support possible, keep abortions to the first trimester, but let the woman decide and let God judge her.

Matthew Warner March 25, 2009 at 12:04 pm

First, God ALLOWING miscarriages to take place and God CAUSING miscarriages are two entirely different things.

Second, following your(Andreas’) moral reasoning regarding miscarriages vs abortion is not only dangerous, but immoral in itself.

According to that reasoning, I guess you think that there is no moral difference between 300,000 people dying in the 2004 Tsunami and a government deciding to execute 300,000 people simply because they didn’t want them anymore?

The problem with your thinking is that you are saying that the END justifies the MEANS. Which is simply not true.

Additionally, if you truly think that pro-lifers’ concern ends at birth then you have been listening too much to the pro-abortion propaganda. Anyone who has actually worked in the pro-life cause would know very obviously otherwise.

Jill March 25, 2009 at 2:34 pm

They (the media) are not showing the truth of how abortion hurts the woman AND the child, or how people are helping people. Women who are choosing abortion are doing so mainly out of fear and desparation. Who will help them? Who will walk with them? Who will love them, when even the father of their child has turned his back?

I for one will. Email me at jill.mach@sbcglobal.net and I will walk with you and listen to you. I will do my best to be Christ to you.

Andreas March 25, 2009 at 2:45 pm

Hi Matthew…

You raise an interesting point and I freely admit that abortion is a very difficult issue.

But first of all I think there is a BIG difference between natural disasters and human actions. Of course there is. But if you believe in an all-powerful being watching over us, I think it gets sticky. Is the basic question of “whence comes evil”?

So is god allowing people to have abortions or is he causing them to have abortions? Because surely, if he wanted it, he could stop it immediately, just as he could have prevented the Tsunami from killing 300.000 people (many of them innocent women and children). But he didn’t.

If you would see a child drown in your pool and you would do nothing and explain in your defense that there was a good reason for not helping, but you claim people wouldn’t understand that reason – you would go to jail and most people would call your inaction despicable. God on the other hand – who is supposed to be a perfect, almighty and benevolent being – gets away with it. That strikes me as very immoral.

And regarding “the ends justify the means”: if I take a look at the old testament god seems to be quite pleased with his followers killing men, women, children and livestock, as long as it the “right” people who get killed.

And when it comes to caring for born life: about 750.000 children live in foster homes or orphanages for various reasons. Maybe some religious energy should be spent on lowering this number first.

Andreas March 25, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Oh…

And I am sorry if this seems incendiary. I am not writing these questions as personal attacks, I really don’t. It is very hard for me sometimes to wrap my head around what I see as inconsistencies and I am often surprised by how other people make it work. I like your commentaries, some of it just seems very hard to accept for me. So please don’t take it as a personal attack, this is not my intend.

Regards,
Andreas

Matthew Warner March 25, 2009 at 2:59 pm

I think you missed my point. You were talking about natural miscarriages. I compared those to natural disasters.

Of course God doesn’t cause abortions. And the reason he allows them is because he respects our free will. He allows US to choose Him (good) or evil (not him). He respects our free will – which is what makes a gift of self (Love) even possible.

When you say that something that God allows “strikes [you] as very immoral” what standard of morality are you using?

And I am talking about what YOU said…not what you perceive God to be doing in the old testament. Are YOU saying that the ends justify the means? Or aren’t you? Your reasoning leads me to believe that you ARE.

Andreas…again, in regard to charity and helping those in need. I would urge you to look at reality. By what basis are you coming to such conclusions? The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world as far as taking care of “born” life in need. If that’s not enough “religious energy” for you…I’m not sure what is.

God bless ya!

Jill March 25, 2009 at 5:47 pm

Somehow the first part of my comments didn’t make it to the blog. I had to send in two posts. My original point was that we all have to die a natural death at some point. Whether God takes us in the womb or in old age, it is His to give and his to take. One person taking the life of another (or his own) is murder.

God could surely stop abortion this minute. Christ could have avoided his own painful death. But, God gives us free will to choose good or evil. Most of the suffering in this world is our own sinfulness; our own doing–not God’s. God is pure LOVE and can do no evil. We, however, are all fallen creatures and sinners. We all have to make an effort to choose love. I urge you, Andreas, to dig deeper because those things that appear to you as inconsistencies have a very deep Truth behind them and are not inconsistent in the least. Go to http://www.CUF.org to explore some answers to your faith questions.

It is good to ponder with an open heart! God Bless You.

Andreas March 25, 2009 at 7:22 pm

Hi there…

The ends don’t justify the means. I just think we have better ways nowadays to judge what is moral and what is not. Turning to the bible for moral guidance doesn’t seem to be a good idea – our own, very human ethics have far surpassed the moral codes of the bible. No one would dream to follow old testament rules and laws anymore that tell you to kill your neighbor for working on the sabbath or not to eat shellfish. That in my opinion shows that humans do not need divine guidance.

And when it comes to everyday issues I would look at who suffers: is the destruction of a lump of cells really more reprehensible than making a woman carry a child against her will? Is contraception really more sinful than population control e.g. in Africa? Is gay marriage really such an issue – apart from the old testament damnation. It seems that many religious people are more concerned about pleasing their god than to keep their fellow beings from suffering. I think the abortion debate comes down to: at which point is a fetus considered to be an aware being that is capable of suffering. Surely not as a clump of undefined cells.

And finally I hear a lot about free will. If you really believe that, why not let the mother sort it out with god. Isn’t that free will? If it was about killing a born child or a fully formed fetus, or a child for that matter, that would be a different issue. What you consider murder is a medical procedure for others, no more.

3 Graces March 25, 2009 at 11:47 pm

Hi Andreas, glad you’re here!
First you said, “I just think we have better ways nowadays to judge what is moral and what is not. Turning to the bible for moral guidance doesn’t seem to be a good idea – our own, very human ethics have far surpassed the moral codes of the bible. … That in my opinion shows that humans do not need divine guidance.”

You will find one bright spot in the midst of the horrors that always occur when man puts himself above or on par with God – the actions of those who were following God’s will during those times. You’ll find it’s those who follow God, regardless of the cost, that show us a way to transcend our self-destructive human nature.

During the Holocaust, at least two great saints emerged – Saint Edith Stein – a brilliant philosopher and jewish/atheist convert to Catholicism. This Carmelite nun died taking care of the wasted women and children in the concentration camps. Her abbreviated story is here: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/edith_stein.htm
Meanwhile Maximillian Kolbe sacrificed his life for others in concentration camps which were founded on the idea that aryans were somehow godlike. http://www.kolbenet.com/pages/our_spirituality/. In Rwanda, another voice spoke forcefully for the reliance on Christ to overcome the shattering slaughter of her entire family in the genocide. Immaculée Ilibagiza http://www.lefttotell.com.
Check it out, Andreas, let us know what you think! Pax Christi!

Jill March 26, 2009 at 8:11 am

Well, Andreas I can see that we are looking at things from very different perspectives. God, the Creator of ALL living things is all knowing, far beyond our miniscule human minds. We (humans) will never get beyond the “moral codes of the bible.” The commandments that God gave us hold true today every bit as much as they did in Old Testament times.

Free will is the individual’s ability to choose good or evil, not everyone’s right to do whatever they want whenever they want. There are consequences and responsibilities that come with our decisions. Every society has laws to protect its people. Speed limits, red lights, no murder. Should you be able to kill your neighbor because he is making your life difficult? NO.

The “clump of cells” you refer to is a LIVING BABY. You can see perfectly formed hands and feet within days of conception. It is not a clump of unfeeling cells at all. Having carried 8 chilcren myself, I assure you that these are humans who respond to pain.

The Truth is always the truth and murder is the taking of human life, it can never be just a medical procedure. I am not speaking on my opinion, but on Truth that has been stated for thousands of years. Abortion is not a new topic. We cannot change truth or alter our moral compasses based on the convenience of our wants. No, man does not make a good god at all! Think Hitler. Think Slavery. Think Mugabee.

Andreas March 26, 2009 at 8:43 am

Hi there…

@Jill:
“The commandments that God gave us hold true today every bit as much as they did in Old Testament times.”

Really? Ok then…

Exodus 21:7 – how much do you want for one or more of your daughters? You wouldn’t mind selling them to me, right, since the bible, whose commandments hold true today as in old testament times, clearly condones this.

Lev 11:10 – would you come with me and picket in front of a Red Lobster restaurant? Leviticus clearly tells us that god hates shellfish – much like homosexuality.

You really think the bible is a good moral compass today? Well, maybe you have skipped a few chapters, or these very clear rules are in fact metaphors?

And yes, killing is bad, it’s against god’s commandment, and that’s why the death penalty is universally opposed by Christian’s in America. Oh, wait, THAT kind of killing seems to be okay with most Christians.

Oh, Hitler? And Slavery? Come on!

The proponents of slavery used THE BIBLE to defend their position. And the opponents used it too. So much for a moral compass.

And Hitler? Sorry, do you mean the Hitler who said:
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
– Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

“Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace smiled on His ungrateful children.”
– Adolf Hitler on World War I

Hitlers belief in God common knowledge.

Andreas March 26, 2009 at 8:46 am

And when it comes to quoting the truth of the bible, maybe someone can help me understanding these passages. And I take your point that morality of the bible is as true today as it was in old testament times…

* In Ex. 21:22-25, God tells us what to do if a man who is brawling knocks against a pregnant woman. If the woman dies, the principle of “life for life” is invoked and the man responsible for her death must be killed. If she lives but has a miscarriage, then the death of the fetus is to be compensated for by the payment of a fine, as demanded by the woman’s husband.

Thus has God revealed the status of the unborn fetus: it is not an independent, full-fledged human life, whose destruction amounts to murder. It is a thing owned by the woman’s husband – a thing whose loss, like that of any other thing, may be compensated for with money.

* In Num. 5:11-31, God commands a husband to get an abortion for his wife if he suspects she has been impregnated by another man. A priest is to make her drink a potion and tell her, “If any man other than your husband has had intercourse with you, may the LORD make an example of you . . . by bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth.”

To deliberately cause a miscarriage is to perform an abortion. And who brings about this miscarriage? Who performs this abortion? It is the LORD who does so.

So, judging by these passages, abortion seems to be ok in some cases. Unless of course the bible is wrong…

Andreas March 26, 2009 at 10:25 am

@3 Graces:
I would never claim that there weren’t many deeply religious people that did amazing and wonderful things – there were.

The difference for me lies in the concept of following Jesus message (philosophically) or following the rules of the bible (literally). While the first one surely inspired many people to do good deeds, the latter seems to further divide and intolerance.

My argument is not against spiritual people – everybody should find his or her way to inner peace and happiness. It’s geared at people who use the bible and their belief as a cloak for their intolerance and hatred. And there is a lot of those people here in America.

And just as atheists do great and amazing things just because they think it’s the right thing to do, there are of course evil non-believers. Just as there are lying, murdering Christians just as there are many saints among them.

@Jill: Oh, and by the way, I didn’t think we would apply Godwin’s Law so quickly to this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

“As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1”

:)

Matthew Warner March 26, 2009 at 10:39 am

Andreas, people’s confusion with interpreting scripture and their abuse of certain scripture passages to do evil just highlights our need to have a Church. Indeed, Jesus did not start a book of scripture…he started a Church. And it is that Church that is there to interpret that scripture for us in the proper way.

I assure you that if you look to the Catholic Church’s official teaching (not what many bad Catholics have wrongly done in the name of it) you will find consistency, meaning, and clarity with all of these passages. But you won’t see it if you continually approach learning about it with your current mindset – i.e. trying to claim that Hitler was some type of practicing Catholic or Christian.

That is so far out there that it can’t be taken seriously in a rational argument. Atheist arguments that use that argument only reveal their deeply skewed preference for their own hate over the truth and reality.

And as you noted, we can point to individuals all day long that have abused and done evil in the name of every good, true thing in this world. This does not at all refute the truth of the original thing. So that gets us nowhere.

I share your pain, however, when “Christians” that abuse their religion do so to cloak intolerance and hate. I have no tolerance for them either.

But I invite you to step back and view Christianity from a slightly different perspective (i.e. not from the perspective that so many popularly abuse it from).

Matthew Warner March 26, 2009 at 10:46 am

Really check out the Catholic Church. I think if you listen to what she officially says about herself (and stop reading hate sites about her) that you might be surprised with the reason, rational thought, sincere love for people, and the beauty you find.

Read a book like “Reasons to Believe” by Scott Hahn. I think that might be a good book for someone like you. I think you’re like me in that you like to approach it from your reason first. And that’s great.

But the main thing is that you have to at least be open to it. I’m not saying you have to believe it first. But if you are going to read it and learn about it with the attitude that it is simply wrong no matter what…then it will be very hard to truly hear what the Church has to say. It is the same for all of us when we learn about anything.

I applaud your effort and honesty. And I admire your work you’ve done…as you’ve obviously done a lot of reading and learning already. That’s great. If you continue to do so with a truly open heart and search for the TRUTH above all (not just for information to support some position you already hold) then you will find the clarity you are looking for. It’s there. God bless you.

Ed-e March 26, 2009 at 11:01 am

Andreas,

As it states in Wikipedia on Godwin’s law, “However, Godwin’s Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent’s argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.”

I think Jill’s reference to Hitler is appropriate for this topic which is concerned with the devaluing of human life.

Jill March 26, 2009 at 11:15 am

Thank you, Matthew for your input. Andreas, I was only using Hitler, Slavery and Mugabee as examples of what happens when man trys to be god. Yes, Christians have/do cooperate with evil all of the time. It is called sin. That is my exact point. I agree with Matthew that you should look into the Catholic Church with an open heart. The paradox is that we as Catholics are imperfect and sinners, but the Catholic Church and her teachings are from Christ who was without sin. If you are expecting Catholics or Christians (or Atheists for that matter)to be perfect, you will come up disappointed every time.

Andreas March 26, 2009 at 12:32 pm

Hi there…

Thanks for your replies. I will check out some of the texts for sure. Even though I do not believe I like to know how people tick and why they believe what they believe.

And a last comment on Hitler: I think pointing at his perceived atheism as the source of his evil seems very selective – he was a vegetarian too, so what does *that* tell us? ;)

I think if we can agree on the point that both non-religious and religious people have and probably will commit atrocities for whatever reasons and that it is up to the individual to make choices for his or her behavior, that would be a good first step.

And as much as I understand your stance on the abortion issue as very real and morally significant, please also keep in mind that pro-choice people are not generally cold-hearted babykillers but might have come to their view by a long and hard thought process.

The religious lifestyle you chose is just one of many ways to view the world and issues of morality, and in my opinion just as valid as any other.

And I don’t mean this as a derogatory comparison: I am sure the Taliban believe with their hearts that they are righteous and doing their religious duty, although we would probably not agree with their views on many things. But if we tell them: “this is wrong”, shouldn’t we also accept that people will tell us “you are wrong” for the exact same reasons?

Phew, now I’ll have some reading to do. Thank you for your time.

3graces March 26, 2009 at 2:19 pm

Hello Friends,

I thought you might be interested in participating in this. You don’t have to be any particular religion, lifestyle or political party to care about this issue – it cuts across every boundary because it deals with basic human dignity. Please keep this message going and take a moment to send the envelope and sign the petition.

This is how Obama got elected – through commited people working together for what they believed.

Let’s stand up and be counted for what we believe.

Red letter day (BUT don’t get hung up on the color of the enevlp)
WHEN: Mail these out this weekend of March 28-29, 2009 or next weekend.

HOW: Get a red envelope. You can buy them at Kinko’s, party supply stores, or office supply stores. BUT ANY ENVELOPE WILL DO. ON THE FRONT, place your name and return address (so it is understood to be a valid person) and address it to:

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
THE WHITE HOUSE
1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVE NW
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20500
ON THE BACK, write the following message, or modify the message if you want, but just get the point across that abortion ends a human life that had a right to a future like ours – a future stolen by abortion. OK here’s the message:

“This envelope represents one child who died in abortion. It is empty because the life that was taken is now unable to be a part of our world or offer anything to us. Responsibility begins at conception.”

Invite every one of your friends to this group who you think would act.

3graces March 26, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Andreas,

Remember, relativism is a philosophy which disproves itself.

3graces

Anna March 26, 2009 at 5:59 pm

Thank you to all of your kind words.

I love how this topic becomes a pick-fest of semantics. It always does. This numbs people. It needs to stop.

Purely- choosing to end, to terminate a growing human being, a being with human DNA the moment conception occurs REGARDLESS of the developmental stage it’s in is wrong. Just because it’s not a born infant doesn’t mean it’s any different. Do we terminate teenagers because we don’t want them anymore? I wasn’t wanted as a child, but I wasn’t terminated as a child. No difference.

You pro-choice people want to talk about scientific opinion and data, you should read Embryo: A Defense of Human Life by Robert P. George. It’s completely devoid of any religious or spiritual content.

3 Graces March 26, 2009 at 7:03 pm

Thanks, Anna, for that suggestion. Another great article to read is “An Argument that Abortion is Wrong” by Don Marquis. It also contains no spiritual or religious arguments, but uses reason and logic to discount every objection.

If anyone wants to see what abortion really is and visit the other slope of death mountain, read Peter Singer’s philosophy which, while admitting the child in utero is a human life – also asserts that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t kill it. THERE YOU HAVE AN HONEST ABORTIONIST. He’s advocated for parents to be able to terminate their already BORN 3 month old childrens’ lives.

“Singer’s argument for abortion differs from many other proponents of abortion; rather than attacking the second premise of the anti-abortion argument, Singer attacks the first premise, denying that it is wrong to take innocent human life:
[The argument that a fetus is not alive] is a resort to a convenient fiction that turns an evidently living being into one that legally is not alive. Instead of accepting such fictions, we should recognise that the fact that a being is human, and alive, does not in itself tell us whether it is wrong to take that being’s life. (Rethinking Life and Death 105)”

Terri March 26, 2009 at 8:45 pm

I am afraid that a minority of people in this country is not only rewriting our constitution, but have been redefining our belief system. By destroying life, storing life and then using it for experimentation,by recreating life, by taking God out of our lives little by little, by our arrogance, pride, void of morality, we are bringing down this nation brick by brick. Even if you do not believe in God or the bible, the stories and examples tell us truths of consequences for certain behaviors. This may truly be the beginning of the end. We as Christians stand idly by and watch it all happen almost silently, when you do nothing you are as guilty as those who commit the wrongs. If this world could or would just live by the ten commandments and the beatitudes we would be so much better off then we are right now. If we don’t learn the lessons of the past, how can we expect to advance to a future?

3graces March 27, 2009 at 9:46 am

Terri,

I feel your pain. But take courage. Good people everywhere are banding together against the common enemy, who is becoming bolder and bolder. The bolder the enemy becomes, the more people will start to recognize that they must fight against that enemy. The enemy can’t help but show his colors eventually. People can only be fooled by good looks, wealth and smooth words for so long. Catholics are starting to wake up.

Be not afraid.

Matthew, thanks for your comments about why it’s necessary to have the authority of the Church.

Andreas March 27, 2009 at 10:13 am

@Terri:
Can I point out that during Roman times Christianity was seen as a threat to the existing pantheon and the views of the majority? At some point in history Christians were a minority that changed the belief system of a whole society.

I find it quite hypocritical to demonize a “minority of people” that has a different world view. Christianity at some point was in the same spot. You should at least have respect for their beliefs which are just as valid and thought out as yours.

And living by the ten commandments would make the world a better place? What moral value do the first four commandments have? I could think of more important issues to put there than that? What about rape? Child abuse? Slavery? Ecological crimes?

I would rather go with Jainisms creed:
Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being.

Now there is a commandment to live by…

Jill March 27, 2009 at 10:41 am

Andreas, You are preaching relativism; yet, you are admonishing those who are stating their beliefs which oppose your beliefs. That is also hypocrisy. The 10 commandments cover all those issues that you pointed to and more. God is the creator of ALL THINGS. We are nothing without Him. This is not up for debate–it is a basic Truth and cannot be denied. Unfortunately, there is not enough time or space in this blog to discuss all of your concerns and questions. They have become off topic. I urge you to take Matthew’s recommendations of reading and continue to ask questions on various sites like http://www.cuf.org that can help you from a more theological standpoint. Peace!

Terri March 27, 2009 at 11:07 am

Andreas,
It was not my intention to demonize anyone. It is a fact that a minority in this country are in fact dictating their wishes on taking out religion in this country. I am not saying that they do not have a right to their beliefs, but that they do not have the right to take away our beliefs, traditions, and displays of it either. This country was founded on the belief of God. They were fleeing from Europe because of the fact that they were being persecuted for their religion. People of no faith or of different faith have no right to take God out of our country because it conflicts with their belief system.
There is common ground between us because I can also agree with Jainisms Creed as well, we all need a set of moral codes as well as man made laws if the human race is going to survive.

Andreas March 27, 2009 at 11:23 am

@Jill: “God is the creator of ALL THINGS. We are nothing without Him. This is not up for debate–it is a basic Truth and cannot be denied.”

Well, I guess any debate is then useless. It does not seem that there *can* be any argument that will make you change your mind or accept my views as equally valid. This is the problem I have with many (but not all) religious people – they think they know the absolute truth. And in the end it always boils down to this: “I must be right, so you must be wrong”.

In a way I envy your strong conviction, on the other hand I am happy that I remain a skeptic and constantly question my beliefs. It costs a lot of energy and it doesn’t make me happier or a better person, but for me it seems the only viable stance is: “We do not know for certain”.

@Jill: I am not admonishing you for your beliefs. I admonish you for trying to put your personal beliefs into law and forcing them on others. I think secularism is the natural state – your flavor of religious lifestyle is your choice. When you are born you are not religious, it all depends on where you live and what your parents believe. I always found it interesting how a deity’s popularity and influence seems to end at a country’s borders…

This is a very interesting group to discuss with, although I feel like some of my stronger arguments are ignored and the weaker ones get dismembered, hehe.

Andreas March 27, 2009 at 11:28 am

@Terri:
“There is common ground between us because I can also agree with Jainisms Creed as well, we all need a set of moral codes as well as man made laws if the human race is going to survive.”

Let’s shake hands on that! :)

3graces March 27, 2009 at 11:35 am

Andreas, the ten commandments address the sins you describe. Before we Catholics go to confession, we must do an exhaustive examination of conscience which shares many of the admonitions of Jainism’s creed – but goes somewhat beyond them.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is based around the 10 commandments and elucidates all the different meanings of each commandment beautifully and at lenght. Also – check out Fr. Grochel’s CD set on the 10 commandments. http://www.catholiccompany.com/catholic-gifts/8001336/Ten-Commandments-CDs/

Willful harm of the environment is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church.

Today’s minority worldview that you mentioned is actually a *majority* of people who support a kind of modern Pantheism: each person his own god – creating his or her own version of truth, and worshipping at his own alter.

Such a world view has no center but the human ego, which is why it’s so popular.

3graces March 27, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Andreas,

It must be kind of fun being the provacateur of the group! :)

Constantly questioning what you believe is part of being a Catholic because it’s a part of being human. Many of the greatest among the Catholic faith have had deep doubts – but also deep and unimaginably beautiful consolations. Them’s what we call, the goodies.

One must ultimately make the leap of faith on one’s own to the fact that there is Truth with a capital “T,” and that truth is a person – Jesus Christ – not an arbitrary and ever changing psychological trope.

Andreas March 27, 2009 at 1:34 pm

Hi there…

@3 graces: “It must be kind of fun being the provacateur of the group!”
Well, only as long as there is thought-provoking discussion going on. I have to say that this one gave a number of very good pointers for my own understanding of religion – even though I don’t believe.

I read a very interesting article in the Christian Science Monitor called “The coming evangelical collapse” written by Michael Spencer, who is a Christian and very active in his community.

This might be interesting because one of his statements is that Catholicism will gain from the evangelical (Protestant) collapse:

“Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more efforts aimed at the “conversion” of Evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.”

And some of his points struck home with me, in particular:

“Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.”

I was positively surprised by this very candid assessment and the possible future of faith in the world – which isn’t at all bad.

3graces March 27, 2009 at 2:15 pm

Hi Andreas,

Glad you find it interesting here! The challenge is exhilirating.

That article sounds fascinating. I have heard a lot of anecdotal stuff about evangelicals coming to the Catholic church. But I’ve heard it from this perspective – that those who are migrating to my faith are doing so because they feel their church to be slipping and sliding on Truth. I’ll try to find the article your referenced online. It’s true that the Catholic church opposed the Iraq war, that we’re on the forefront of caring for the poor around the world and have been for centuries…basically, we’re willing to take a lot of very unpopular positions and stand firm, mostly. And I’m proud of that.

The Catholic church is always happy to welcome our brothers and sisters home.

Oh, and I meant to say PANTHEON not pantheism – LIKE who cares, but anyhoo: “Today’s minority worldview that you mentioned is actually a *majority* of people who support a kind of modern PANTHEON: each person his own god – creating his or her own version of truth, and worshipping at his own alter.

Such a world view has no center but the human ego, which is why it’s so popular.”

Jim Oberschmidt March 28, 2009 at 10:10 am

It is a blessing, the learning here, both from the uncertain and the certain participants. Wisdom begins with the fear of God.

A clear question is; Do we choose our beliefs or do they choose us. I am called, and seeking the truth, a closer relationship with our Lord Jesus in my heart. His actions are the same then now and always.

A clear valid of faith in God, is the power in life itself. Our choice to raise the discussion up to our actions to save life, all life; to include the unborn is a measure of our certainty.

A clear valid is also doubt in the faith in God; Thomas’ example, and our Lord’s response. Peace be with you all, and my thanks for lifting this discussion above my singular point of view. I am called to love another as myself. Your examples here are powerful, you may take heart, dear friends.

Jim

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